Even though the choice of Just Like Heaven was easy for me, it does not mean I don't love Pet Shop Boys. But The Cure are just in another stratosphere of legendary bands. Pet Shop Boys put on a great and entertaining show (but Chris Lowe does just stand back behind his computers, looking like he's doing nothing, just like in all their videos).
But The Cure...their shows are an existential spiritual happening. They are moving to a point I can't really describe. I cry at least once during every show I've seen of theirs. To be in a space sharing that with thousands of other people who for some strange reason you can feel a real closeness with...I just wish I could bottle that energy up to take with me.
As you guys alluded to, he gets tagged with the "depressed" or "sad" label all the time, but that's just by people that don't get it. His music runs the gamut of human emotions, sometimes all in the same song. His music does what I once heard Steven Spielberg say about Shakespeare's plays, it gives us the map of the human heart.
Both bands take me back to those club days, sometimes I heard their tracks for the first time at the club, including both of these. I remember exactly when and where I was the first time I heard the "new" Pet Shop Boys track Left To My Own Devices, and it was glorious.
These are both really important bands for me and my teen years. That's why I'm so annoyed this matchup is so early. I want them both honored for being a part of saving my life.
I feel like I'd enjoy hanging out & talking music with you IRL, Deni - even though this choice for me was as easy as yours, but in the opposite direction. I love The Cure an awful lot, but "West End Girls" changed me forever. https://goofaceazon.com/2022/09/27/too-many-shadows/
I met Deni through Joe, they are longtime close friends like you and I are, John. And yes, you guys have plenty in common! Thanks for linking your writing, I just finished revisiting that post, still love it! --K
Nice blog post. I'd say that Pet Shop Boys (who I LOVE) would have had the same effect on me had that been the first thing I heard in that genre. By the time they came out I had already been turned onto OMD, Depeche Mode, New Order, Erasure, Yaz, etc. Though, I do have a great memory of West End Girls, it was playing in the video room of the teen club the night that I made out with a girl there for the first time.
I have been less enthused than you for New Order shows in recent years. I don't think they have been nearly as good live since Peter Hook left the band. Nobody can play bass like that and I think it takes away the core sound of the band with him gone.
Thanks for the kind words about the post. And I generally agree about Peter Hook, although my comparison between the pre- and post- eras is blurred a bit by 30+ years of time between the two occasions I saw them.
I love this post so much, man! I wish I had more exposure to these bands than I actually had. Never went to a show for either of them, just had them on the radio and on some friends' tapes.
But I am glad that you had them when you needed them! 🤗
I don't know who to vote for on this. I think West End Girls is more 80s. But I don't think I can vote against The Cure. Listening to their music is something I got from my sister, whom I don't have a ton in common with. They're the only concert my brother and I have gone to together (just last year, in a rainstorm at Blossom). I almost named my kid "Elise" after one of my favorite Cure songs (George used veto power on that, but I think only because he has a cousin named Elise). They're not even my favorite band, but dammit if Robert Smith hasn't played a big part in my musical life and otherwise.
As for writing happy songs, I love that he says he's off being happy/in love/etc. rather than making music about it. I think that actually may be true about a lot of artists. I have a theory (I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this) that the reason so many artists can come out with a killer first album and a so-so second album is because they usually have 25 or more years of struggles in order to collect a dozen songs for that first one -- songs that are usually relatable to teens and young adults going through similar struggles. Then the artist gets some fame, things are going well, and now they have to produce another album, usually in only a couple of years, that hits the same, and there's just not the time nor the same struggles to strike that exact note twice (usually). And artists often (not always) get worse over the years because they become boring middle-aged people like us. :) Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Sometimes experiential just outweighs the sound of something…and in your case, I can totally see that! In reference to your “sophomore slump” hypothesis, I think I have seen an interview with Eddie Van Halen (around the time of their second album) saying almost EXACTLY what you have said. And it makes total sense why this would be a universal phenomenon. In Van Halen’s case, of course, they overcame the sophomore slump (their second album had a few classics on it, but was rife with shitty cover songs). But then interestingly, late in their careers, trying to recapture past magic that had become elusive, VH reunited with Roth and made their entire final album on the ashes of the first one…reworking unreleased tracks, demos, and old unused riffs from 1977. Didn’t really work, other than a few glimpses. Anyway, love that TOID about your daughter, I didn’t know that one! 😊—Keith
Yeah, the song choice for The Cure was perfect. If the question was what is the BEST Cure song, well that would be a much tougher call. For this purpose though I think that Just Like Heaven is the obvious choice. (It would be in the running for the best Cure song contest as well, but with a gun to my head I would probably go with Picture Of You)
I absolutely have to go with Just Like Heaven. As I've argued to you guys before, there is more to the 80s than synth and the Post-Punk, New Wave, and Goth movements - with their foundations in the late 70s to be sure - hit their zenith in the 80s. And it can be argued that The Cure is the best representative of not just one, but all three of those genres. (But Robert Smith does cringe at The Cure being called Goth).
I would have gone with a different Pet Shop Boys song, I think there are better representations than their first single, like It's A Sin as one example. But probably would vote for What Have Done To Deserve This? because of the sound and with the Dusty Springfield connection it harkens back to, yet again, Northern Soul.
The thing is, "West End Girls" hit a level of ubiquity that none of their other songs reached. As I said in the show, I'm really partial to "Go West," but this song was ranked the best British single by The Guardian for a reason.
Agreed - the only contender for an '80s-er Pet Shop Boys song (which I was surprised didn't get mentioned in the show) was "Opportunities (Let's Make Lots of Money)" - I mean, that's pretty fucking '80s. right there.
It IS so 80s--I had it on the show playlist to play, and got sidetracked apparently, because I just checked and I did NOT play it! 🤦♂️ Such a great song! --K
I totally get the reason to vote Cure, you make a persuasive argument, and I think this will end up being very close, and I will be happy with either outcome.
Regarding which song of Pet Shop Boys to pick, for me it was a tough choice. Didn't pick "Always on My Mind," because I wanted to do one of their originals. And in listening to "What Have I Done to Deserve This?" it was very close. My experiential ties to "West End Girls," and it being just slightly more popular put it over the top (for me). That and it seemed like a different *kind*'of song to me, it felt different from the other songs on the radio. So I would have been happy with any of those songs, but that's why I ended up on the one I did.
Tough call, but I feel you on the Pet Shop Boys. Of course that bit about our parents was a joke, but all jokes may have their pinky toe dipped in truth! :D
Without Cure fans at your high school, how did the bullies know who to beat up? Because we had fucking targets on our backs at my high schools. At the school I went to senior year there was a day during spirit week (you one, dress like such and such each day, ie school colors, dress like a hippy, etc) that was called "dress like a freak" day. On that day all of the popular preppy kids dressed like us.
I assume the bullies we had (fortunately not too many in number) just looked for either smaller guys, larger girls, or anyone who they could call [redacted pejorative term for gay]?
We had like one spirit day--wear school colors on pep rally day. I don't recall us being sophisticated enough to pull off an entire week like that.
Sorry that your high school years were so stressful and shitty for you, man.
The Cure for the win! I just love the song, specially the lyrics. On a fun note, I always assumed for no reason that the "west end girls" were prostitutes 😂 I think that I'll stick to that notion, because it's more fun! Keith, our weekly trips to Taco Bell on Brookline Av are among my best memories of Boston. By the way, did I hear a "see you next week" at the end?
I absolutely loved making a "Run For the Border" with you and Jen and Guillermo and company! Do you know where Guillermo went after Emerson? I have kept in touch with Jen and you a little, but I'm not sure where he ended up!
I don't know if I said, "see you next week" or not... but if so, it was to Joe, thinking I will see him in December if he returns home for the holidays. Our next shows are definitely coming Wednesday and Friday of this week!
It's good to know that you guys are sticking to the three times a week schedule! My drive to work in the mornings wouldn't be the same without my favourite podcast. I'm still friends with Guillermo, we were actually partners in a video production company for about ten years! He lives in Córdoba and owns a successful marketing and branding company. I don´t know if he still eats tacos, though!
Produced by some "other guy?" That "other guy" is legendary producer Stephen Hague. He's American but most of his work was with British acts Look him up and see his credits, it will blow you away all that he was involved with. Did a lot of OMD, New Order, Siouxsie, Erasure, etc and even more mainstream like Robert Palmer Peter Gabriel. He oversaw several soundtracks like Some Kind of Wonderful. He was also involved in many, many remixes of songs he maybe didn't produce as well. Like Bizarre Love Triangle. He's likely involved in several songs on this bracket. He probably involved in half the albums I bought in the 80s.
If forgot to comment on the remark about the lyrics not containing the song title. That is very, very common in New Order's music. I'd say it is true in the vast majority of their songs (watch someone now do a deep dive song by song to prove me wrong). On the Substance Double CD I think only Confusion, Shell Shock and 1963 (a b-side) have the title in the lyrics. Touched By The Hand of God - a b-side to Blue Monday '88 - is another. But most of their songs - again, I think - follow the pattern of no song title in the lyrics.
Even though the choice of Just Like Heaven was easy for me, it does not mean I don't love Pet Shop Boys. But The Cure are just in another stratosphere of legendary bands. Pet Shop Boys put on a great and entertaining show (but Chris Lowe does just stand back behind his computers, looking like he's doing nothing, just like in all their videos).
But The Cure...their shows are an existential spiritual happening. They are moving to a point I can't really describe. I cry at least once during every show I've seen of theirs. To be in a space sharing that with thousands of other people who for some strange reason you can feel a real closeness with...I just wish I could bottle that energy up to take with me.
As you guys alluded to, he gets tagged with the "depressed" or "sad" label all the time, but that's just by people that don't get it. His music runs the gamut of human emotions, sometimes all in the same song. His music does what I once heard Steven Spielberg say about Shakespeare's plays, it gives us the map of the human heart.
Both bands take me back to those club days, sometimes I heard their tracks for the first time at the club, including both of these. I remember exactly when and where I was the first time I heard the "new" Pet Shop Boys track Left To My Own Devices, and it was glorious.
These are both really important bands for me and my teen years. That's why I'm so annoyed this matchup is so early. I want them both honored for being a part of saving my life.
I feel like I'd enjoy hanging out & talking music with you IRL, Deni - even though this choice for me was as easy as yours, but in the opposite direction. I love The Cure an awful lot, but "West End Girls" changed me forever. https://goofaceazon.com/2022/09/27/too-many-shadows/
I met Deni through Joe, they are longtime close friends like you and I are, John. And yes, you guys have plenty in common! Thanks for linking your writing, I just finished revisiting that post, still love it! --K
Nice blog post. I'd say that Pet Shop Boys (who I LOVE) would have had the same effect on me had that been the first thing I heard in that genre. By the time they came out I had already been turned onto OMD, Depeche Mode, New Order, Erasure, Yaz, etc. Though, I do have a great memory of West End Girls, it was playing in the video room of the teen club the night that I made out with a girl there for the first time.
I have been less enthused than you for New Order shows in recent years. I don't think they have been nearly as good live since Peter Hook left the band. Nobody can play bass like that and I think it takes away the core sound of the band with him gone.
Thanks for the kind words about the post. And I generally agree about Peter Hook, although my comparison between the pre- and post- eras is blurred a bit by 30+ years of time between the two occasions I saw them.
I love this post so much, man! I wish I had more exposure to these bands than I actually had. Never went to a show for either of them, just had them on the radio and on some friends' tapes.
But I am glad that you had them when you needed them! 🤗
--Keith
I don't know who to vote for on this. I think West End Girls is more 80s. But I don't think I can vote against The Cure. Listening to their music is something I got from my sister, whom I don't have a ton in common with. They're the only concert my brother and I have gone to together (just last year, in a rainstorm at Blossom). I almost named my kid "Elise" after one of my favorite Cure songs (George used veto power on that, but I think only because he has a cousin named Elise). They're not even my favorite band, but dammit if Robert Smith hasn't played a big part in my musical life and otherwise.
As for writing happy songs, I love that he says he's off being happy/in love/etc. rather than making music about it. I think that actually may be true about a lot of artists. I have a theory (I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this) that the reason so many artists can come out with a killer first album and a so-so second album is because they usually have 25 or more years of struggles in order to collect a dozen songs for that first one -- songs that are usually relatable to teens and young adults going through similar struggles. Then the artist gets some fame, things are going well, and now they have to produce another album, usually in only a couple of years, that hits the same, and there's just not the time nor the same struggles to strike that exact note twice (usually). And artists often (not always) get worse over the years because they become boring middle-aged people like us. :) Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Sometimes experiential just outweighs the sound of something…and in your case, I can totally see that! In reference to your “sophomore slump” hypothesis, I think I have seen an interview with Eddie Van Halen (around the time of their second album) saying almost EXACTLY what you have said. And it makes total sense why this would be a universal phenomenon. In Van Halen’s case, of course, they overcame the sophomore slump (their second album had a few classics on it, but was rife with shitty cover songs). But then interestingly, late in their careers, trying to recapture past magic that had become elusive, VH reunited with Roth and made their entire final album on the ashes of the first one…reworking unreleased tracks, demos, and old unused riffs from 1977. Didn’t really work, other than a few glimpses. Anyway, love that TOID about your daughter, I didn’t know that one! 😊—Keith
Yeah, the song choice for The Cure was perfect. If the question was what is the BEST Cure song, well that would be a much tougher call. For this purpose though I think that Just Like Heaven is the obvious choice. (It would be in the running for the best Cure song contest as well, but with a gun to my head I would probably go with Picture Of You)
I absolutely have to go with Just Like Heaven. As I've argued to you guys before, there is more to the 80s than synth and the Post-Punk, New Wave, and Goth movements - with their foundations in the late 70s to be sure - hit their zenith in the 80s. And it can be argued that The Cure is the best representative of not just one, but all three of those genres. (But Robert Smith does cringe at The Cure being called Goth).
I would have gone with a different Pet Shop Boys song, I think there are better representations than their first single, like It's A Sin as one example. But probably would vote for What Have Done To Deserve This? because of the sound and with the Dusty Springfield connection it harkens back to, yet again, Northern Soul.
The thing is, "West End Girls" hit a level of ubiquity that none of their other songs reached. As I said in the show, I'm really partial to "Go West," but this song was ranked the best British single by The Guardian for a reason.
Agreed - the only contender for an '80s-er Pet Shop Boys song (which I was surprised didn't get mentioned in the show) was "Opportunities (Let's Make Lots of Money)" - I mean, that's pretty fucking '80s. right there.
It IS so 80s--I had it on the show playlist to play, and got sidetracked apparently, because I just checked and I did NOT play it! 🤦♂️ Such a great song! --K
I totally get the reason to vote Cure, you make a persuasive argument, and I think this will end up being very close, and I will be happy with either outcome.
Regarding which song of Pet Shop Boys to pick, for me it was a tough choice. Didn't pick "Always on My Mind," because I wanted to do one of their originals. And in listening to "What Have I Done to Deserve This?" it was very close. My experiential ties to "West End Girls," and it being just slightly more popular put it over the top (for me). That and it seemed like a different *kind*'of song to me, it felt different from the other songs on the radio. So I would have been happy with any of those songs, but that's why I ended up on the one I did.
--Keith
Tough one, but, yeah, I went with Pet Shop Boys.
I’m so glad that Dave and I were able to broker a peace between our incredibly powerful families. lol. Ruthless casting, indeed. Mom, anyway.
Tough call, but I feel you on the Pet Shop Boys. Of course that bit about our parents was a joke, but all jokes may have their pinky toe dipped in truth! :D
Damn fine songs, both. Despite the 80s-est guitar licks in the competition, gotta go with West End Girls here -- overall more 80s-est.
Yeah this was an exceptionally difficult decision, forced way too early. Such is the nature of the beast. --Keith
Without Cure fans at your high school, how did the bullies know who to beat up? Because we had fucking targets on our backs at my high schools. At the school I went to senior year there was a day during spirit week (you one, dress like such and such each day, ie school colors, dress like a hippy, etc) that was called "dress like a freak" day. On that day all of the popular preppy kids dressed like us.
Have I mentioned how much I hated high school?
I assume the bullies we had (fortunately not too many in number) just looked for either smaller guys, larger girls, or anyone who they could call [redacted pejorative term for gay]?
We had like one spirit day--wear school colors on pep rally day. I don't recall us being sophisticated enough to pull off an entire week like that.
Sorry that your high school years were so stressful and shitty for you, man.
--Keith
I KNEW it! --Keith
The Cure for the win! I just love the song, specially the lyrics. On a fun note, I always assumed for no reason that the "west end girls" were prostitutes 😂 I think that I'll stick to that notion, because it's more fun! Keith, our weekly trips to Taco Bell on Brookline Av are among my best memories of Boston. By the way, did I hear a "see you next week" at the end?
I absolutely loved making a "Run For the Border" with you and Jen and Guillermo and company! Do you know where Guillermo went after Emerson? I have kept in touch with Jen and you a little, but I'm not sure where he ended up!
I don't know if I said, "see you next week" or not... but if so, it was to Joe, thinking I will see him in December if he returns home for the holidays. Our next shows are definitely coming Wednesday and Friday of this week!
It's good to know that you guys are sticking to the three times a week schedule! My drive to work in the mornings wouldn't be the same without my favourite podcast. I'm still friends with Guillermo, we were actually partners in a video production company for about ten years! He lives in Córdoba and owns a successful marketing and branding company. I don´t know if he still eats tacos, though!
Produced by some "other guy?" That "other guy" is legendary producer Stephen Hague. He's American but most of his work was with British acts Look him up and see his credits, it will blow you away all that he was involved with. Did a lot of OMD, New Order, Siouxsie, Erasure, etc and even more mainstream like Robert Palmer Peter Gabriel. He oversaw several soundtracks like Some Kind of Wonderful. He was also involved in many, many remixes of songs he maybe didn't produce as well. Like Bizarre Love Triangle. He's likely involved in several songs on this bracket. He probably involved in half the albums I bought in the 80s.
I felt that all of that was implied by my "some other guy." Did that not come through?
50/50, gonna be tight this
Yes, I advocate throwing out the seeds in this entire region and just vote your heart! --Keith
Haha, welcome aboard! 😎😜
I went with Just like Heaven, and that guitar lick is very 80s. Great song too
Agree on the lick, and that it's a great fucking song!
If forgot to comment on the remark about the lyrics not containing the song title. That is very, very common in New Order's music. I'd say it is true in the vast majority of their songs (watch someone now do a deep dive song by song to prove me wrong). On the Substance Double CD I think only Confusion, Shell Shock and 1963 (a b-side) have the title in the lyrics. Touched By The Hand of God - a b-side to Blue Monday '88 - is another. But most of their songs - again, I think - follow the pattern of no song title in the lyrics.
And I also just realized I put this comment on the wrong post. D'oh!
What IS your favorite song of theirs?? --K